Bullying

Negativecool

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Will return to go in depth/clarify this topic later but I just had to post a quicky about what I've been seeing in the news lately about bullying.

I will spell out the quick and dirty of my thoughts thusly: (most likely much to the chagrin of one particular sanctimonious poster)

I disagree with the direction taken to address bullying. Seems the new trend is to raise awareness about it being the worst thing since genocide. Seems like the message is to "Stop bullying."
Several problems with it:
1. If bullies gave a shit about consequence (ie causing extreme long lasting mental duress/depression of the bullied) there wouldn't be bullying.
2. If bullies gave a shit about how others told them to act (ie a direct initiative/campaign by peers/authoritative figures to stop bullying) there wouldn't be bullying.
3. There has been and always will be bullying for reasons above. Unless man finds a way to end the reasons that cause one to bully (violence at home/insecurities/chemical imbalance/jealousy/etc, etc and what have you) there will always be bullying.
4. I consider this new campaign to "magically" end bullying as a sign of society's total and sickening embracement of pacifism as a means to deal with violent/nonviolent action brought against another. To initiate a campaign to educate on the affects of bullying (which have been known to all since....ever) in an attempt to stop it is totally asinine. The campaign, instead, should be in an attempt to empower those being bullied. That it is ok not to sit there and take it. Often, the only way an asshole bully will understand that bullying will not be tolerated is when fire is used against fire.
Case in point, remember this?: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sb4kNcpyF_I Bully continues to bully until violence is met with violence. What happened? Bully stopped bullying the fat kid. What also happened? They BOTH got in trouble!? This only goes to prove that idealistic embracement of pacifism as the answer will only perpetuate the problem of bullying. How can bullying be stopped when bullies are empowered by the fact that who they are bullying will also be punished if they retaliate/defend themselves?

My daughter's introduction to bullying was at the tender age of 10 months by some fat fuckin toddler boy in overalls at the play area at the mall. I watched them like a hawk the whole time and there was no cause for it. He made a random attempt to push her over but she retreated. I could see what was happening and walked over to her as he then ran after her and succeeded in his second attempt in which I caught her on her way down. She was totally confused by the experience and pushed out the fat lip but didn't cry because daddy was there.

I intend to give my daughter the freedom and power to deal with bullying with direct and specific force and trust that I have raised her to use the ability autonomously and properly. My parents had a no retaliation/no getting into trouble policy to which I passively dealt with a lot of bullying by a lot of bitches that simply needed a good punch in the cock washer. Only until I hit the weights in junior high in preparation for football did the bullying stop, as I was now a clear physical threat.
My daughter will have no such hindrance. My heart will swell with pride if I am called to the principle's office because she beat the shit out of a bully, guy or girl. Obviously there are more ways to bully these days (social media etc) beyond simple physical confrontation. Should it be necessary I will educate her on the art of fucking with people via the internet, the social dynamics of gaining favor/status through manipulation/misdirection/outright lying on these social media outlets, the art of the flame, masterful use of rumors both true and untrue to smear the enemy and the enemy's allies, etc and so forth. Basically, only should it be necessary, bullies will know not to fuck with her, and that's the message I want to send---not 'geh golly stop bullying cuz it hurts people's feewings.'
 

Zeabot

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1. If bullies gave a shit about consequence (ie causing extreme long lasting mental duress/depression of the bullied) there wouldn't be bullying.
2. If bullies gave a shit about how others told them to act (ie a direct initiative/campaign by peers/authoritative figures to stop bullying) there wouldn't be bullying.
The campaign to stop bullying is not directed at the alpha-bully. Those types will always exist. They are directed towards fringe bullies and even people getting bullied themselves. To tell them to stop bullying is to tell them to stand up together. This is a powerful message, as there is definitely power in numbers.



The campaign, instead, should be in an attempt to empower those being bullied. That it is ok not to sit there and take it. Often, the only way an asshole bully will understand that bullying will not be tolerated is when fire is used against fire.
I'll come straight out and say that I don't think this is true, that it has to be fire against fire. However, even if that is true, it is still flawed. How can you create a campaign of empowering children to stand up and beat the shit out of bullies? The flaw comes in who is the bully? If you are empowering, and even encouraging, children to be able to fight bullies, that is trusting the children to be able to make decisions on who (also what) is good and how far is far enough.

There have been several threads on this board in the past that point to this exact point. Maybe your daughter can distinguish, and I would trust you with that, but would you trust that fat kid on a cell phone to have that same feeling of empowerment? Would to trust even 50% of children to have that kind of empowerment? I don't.
 

Unhappy Camper

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Mar 10, 2008
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Another issue directly "fixable" by ending recreational procreation.

More kids in class rooms = less individual supervision = more acting out for attention = shitty little a-holes picking on weaker pansy a-holes.

More kids in the home = stress = papa smacking mama for givin him some lip = junior a-hole having no example of decent behavior.

Less kids = everyone wins.
 

Fancypants

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I think one of the big problems is that I don't believe the cognitive development that prevents people from bullying develops until the teens (or later for some). Sure, children can be taught to "play nice" and treat others nicely but I think that's much more of an issue of wanting to do what mommy and daddy say than out of basis of respect for the other children.
 

Zeabot

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Less kids = everyone wins.
Woah woah woah. This is incredible! Maybe I just need to reread all of your posts, but I thought you were anti children, as in no children ever. Not just simply less kids.
 

Violet

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It's all got to come down to parenting. Just like we tell our kids not to get into vans with creepy strangers, we have to recognize and act on signs of whether our own children act like ornery little shits around other kids, or if they're subject to abuse at the hands of others and respond accordingly.

I, for one, agree that sometimes the only way to handle it is to fight back. Unfortunately, my son was being picked on at school by some other boy for a little while, and getting in trouble during recess for being in the midst of bully activity. After seeing the kid in question out in public with his parents, who appeared to not really give a fuck about the way this kid acted, I realized that by going to them with the issue, I'd probably only further instigate this kid into more bullying. After being called in to the school for one incident, I outright told the principal that if my kid were sent home for popping this kid in the mouth, he'd receive no further punishment from me. I know my kid, and he's just not the physically violent type.

What worries me more isn't the physical bullying. In most cases, if a kid is being pushed around long enough, instinct will take over and he or she will fight back. I bumped into an old friend the other day whose 6th grade daughter had attempted suicide after being emotionally bullied by a classmate for too long. 6th grade! She can't be more than 12! Again, surely if this classmate received a good punch on the mouth it would probably end the issue. My friend has also tried telling her daughter to fight back, but the girl is concerned about the trouble she'd get into, and probably rightly so. The school's become so hell-bent against violence that they only see the issue in someone getting physical.
 

TopGrey

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We told our daughter and will tell our son the following rules:

3 Strikes is final

Strike 1. Tell a teacher/authority figure/guardian that you are being picked on.

Strike 2. Apply the above again but this time tell the bully to leave you alone.

Strike 3. Pound the shit out of the bully until they no longer feel inclined to bully you.

When in the 3rd grade this scenario played out she did exactly as she had been instructed. The teacher even admitted she'd not adequately attempted to solve the issue after being told twice by my kiddo that lil' Jimmy was punching her in the arm repeatedly. She is athletically built and was a bruiser at that age. That boy never caused anymore trouble in the class after that. However, the school was rather unhappy with what she called 'daddies rules'. As angry as I was that they thought she'd done something wrong by protecting herself it was my wife I had to hold back from killing the 'Counselor'. Shortly thereafter we began homeschooling. Unfortunately we've had to put her back into the public system but she's currently able to get along with most people and has little of the typical teen-aged angst.

Funny times.......lay down and take it because you'll only make it worse and they are probably less fortunate/had a bad home life/misunderstood/crazy/druggie etc. And God forbid you do stand and fight because you are then more liable for their injuries than they would be for any they might have caused you.

Crazy frickin' world where to protect oneself is a crime but to let another pick on you or take from you that which is not theirs is considered a more ideal way to handle the situation.
 

Fancypants

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I don't understand why everyone always says that if someone is getting bullied they should kick the bully's ass, like that's so easy to do. In nearly all the cases the bully is the bully because they are the biggest and strongest, and the ones getting bullied are getting bullied because they are the smallest and weakest. That's like the class idiot challenging the brainiac to a spelling bee so that people stop calling him stupid.
 

Unhappy Camper

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I don't understand why everyone always says that if someone is getting bullied they should kick the bully's ass, like that's so easy to do. In nearly all the cases the bully is the bully because they are the biggest and strongest, and the ones getting bullied are getting bullied because they are the smallest and weakest. That's like the class idiot challenging the brainiac to a spelling bee so that people stop calling him stupid.
Very true. Also, the "bully" event changes to murder far too easily these days.


Home school.

or

Don't have kids.

and

Buy a dog.


I R genius.
 

TopGrey

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I don't understand why everyone always says that if someone is getting bullied they should kick the bully's ass, like that's so easy to do. In nearly all the cases the bully is the bully because they are the biggest and strongest, and the ones getting bullied are getting bullied because they are the smallest and weakest. That's like the class idiot challenging the brainiac to a spelling bee so that people stop calling him stupid.


True and good point. In my daughters case it is an easy thing for her as she's shown she can handle herself. If for a minute I thought she might not then she would be told not to do so. Also, she's old enough now to make her own judgments. At the teen level bullies get carried away and no matter how well she protects herself sometimes bullies are just plain bigger. But still I stand by the idea that one should be allowed to protect oneself or their familiy without fear of undue punishment.
 

Syenite

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I recall there being a few kids in my school who would freak out at the slightest provocation. They'd throw desks, scream, etc.

I also recall there being a few 'bullies' who used to harass these kids just enough so that they WOULD freak out, and then laugh about it.
 

Capt.

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Bullying will never stop. Even the bullies get bullied. It's a factor of life. The campaign is nothing more than a corporate gesture by all parties involved. Bullying in general will never be stopped. Bullying must be handled on a case basis. When I was younger, I told my Dad that a kid had punched me in the face. He responded by teaching me how to fight. Yeah, while learning to fight, I got my ass kicked a few times by said bully and a few others. But once he fine tuned my technique, I was able to subdue and escape...if escape wasn't an option (Bully never let up), then I kept fighting until he beat my ass, or I kicked his.

It's just a factor of life. With the addition of Facebook and other social media, physical bullying may be slowed, but mental bullying will just increase. As the devil's advocate, I do have to say that never being exposed to danger or controversial situations would make us all a bunch of flower-sniffing, butt-licking pussies. Ask any soldier, learning to shoot a gun was great prep, but in the field of duty, it must have been a whole entirely different world.
 

Vaulte Kamish

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The only success stories I've heard about bullies being stopped is when either, (a) the bully gets his ass kicked by his victim, or (b) the entire community intervenes.

Frankly, (b) is more socially acceptable. Better still, it involves everyone in the solution. In other words, EVERYONE must take responsibility for the bully's behaviour. You see someone getting bullied - you jump in and help protect them. You stand up for yourself and others.

This is difficult to do in real life (remember the Holocaust?) But not so difficult in school... because school is a controlled environment full of children who can be made to do things by (supposedly) caring individuals (i.e. it's not Auschwitz).

Kids get picked on because they are scared, intimidated or humiliated. Sure, you can (and should) help bolster their self-esteem but I think the other kids should be taught not to turn a blind eye to what they see. It's their job, too, to help someone else in need. And this fosters empathy... which is probably something that the bullies need to learn anyways.
 

KommieKat

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(a) the bully gets his ass kicked by his victim,
I was bullied by the assholes across the street and his buddies. This was elementary school days.

After a year of it, I finally took a baseball bat, knocked on his door and said that if he didn't stop it, I would bash his head in.
He stopped it.


I think it was after this that I became interested in Martial Arts. Yo, whooping some ass, ya'll! ( my wife is complaining why is it afterwards, I always slap her ass.)
'
 

Zeabot

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self-esteem but I think the other kids should be taught not to turn a blind eye to what they see.
And that is precisely the message we should try to get out. Just as many people on this thread have stated, usually the bully is picking up some nerd-o. If the pack of nerds can stand up as one, the bully would no longer be a threat. Hopefully, that type of mentality does not lead to gang-style warfare (IE turning it into a group of bullies against a group of nerds), but, in general, the threat would be neutralized.
 

Zeabot

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I, half-assed, attempted to find another funny picture of people LARPing (I'm sure there are hordes of these awesome pictures) when I came across this one and laughed a little.


 

Mamba

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The only success stories I've heard about bullies being stopped is when either, (a) the bully gets his ass kicked by his victim, or (b) the entire community intervenes.

Frankly, (b) is more socially acceptable. Better still, it involves everyone in the solution. In other words, EVERYONE must take responsibility for the bully's behaviour. You see someone getting bullied - you jump in and help protect them. You stand up for yourself and others.

This is difficult to do in real life (remember the Holocaust?) But not so difficult in school... because school is a controlled environment full of children who can be made to do things by (supposedly) caring individuals (i.e. it's not Auschwitz).

Kids get picked on because they are scared, intimidated or humiliated. Sure, you can (and should) help bolster their self-esteem but I think the other kids should be taught not to turn a blind eye to what they see. It's their job, too, to help someone else in need. And this fosters empathy... which is probably something that the bullies need to learn anyways.
I was bullied at school, by a group of girls - and everyone turned a blind eye. I still wish I could go back and beat their heads in with a baseball bat.

I agree with everything you said. Kudos.
 

Violet

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don't understand why everyone always says that if someone is getting bullied they should kick the bully's ass, like that's so easy to do. In nearly all the cases the bully is the bully because they are the biggest and strongest, and the ones getting bullied are getting bullied because they are the smallest and weakest.
I hear ya, but my kid's never been accused of being little. He's a head taller than most kids, and starting out, I had always given him permission to stick up for the little guy.

Regardless, more often than not, one doesn't even have to win the fight against the bully. Usually, the willingness to stick up for yourself (or even your buddies) can often be a deterrent enough. Most bullies are looking for the easy target, and will move on or shut up if given too much of a fight.