Chaplains upset over possible "don't ask" lift

Klautermauffen

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December 9, 2010



While most military personnel see no problem serving with openly gay comrades, some military chaplains are bristling. Many of the 3,000 chaplains are evangelical and believe repealing the "don't ask, don't tell" policy may affect how they do their jobs.


Ronald Crews, a retired Army colonel and chaplain, works with active chaplains from his evangelical denomination. A few months ago, he began asking military chaplains what they thought about repealing don't ask, don't tell. One response in particular bothered him. The chaplain had just returned from a briefing by a general about the impact of changing the policy and asked if the military would protect him if he asserted that homosexuality is a sin.


"And the response he received from this four-star general was, 'If you cannot accept the changes coming, you have an option: You can resign your commission,' " Crews says.




Crews is one of 66 retired chaplains who sent a letter urging President Obama to retain don't ask, don't tell. Active duty chaplains have also complained anonymously. One said in a Pentagon survey that the change creates an "unavoidable conflict" with his ability to preach and teach the Bible. Another asked whether chaplains would be forced to integrate gay soldiers into family ministry.




Daniel Blomberg, an attorney for the conservative legal group Alliance Defense Fund, wonders: What if a soldier confides to a chaplain that he's gay?
Read The Letter

Chaplains Urge Obama To Retain 'Don't Ask, Don't Tell'

"What happens when the chaplain responds according to the dictates of his faith and says that type of behavior — like other types of sexual sins — is not in accordance with God's will?" he says.


Blomberg says the proposed rules don't make it clear how the chaplain should handle the situation. But, he says, the chaplain could be open to a charge of discrimination based on sexual orientation.


"And that could be career-ending for a chaplain," he says.
Chaplains won't be able to freely express their faith, he says. "They feel that repealing don't ask, don't tell will put them in the situation where they have to choose between obeying the God they serve and the country they love."


Retired Major Gen. John Altenberg, who was the No. 2 lawyer in the Army, disagrees. He says, for example, if a chaplain were uncomfortable counseling a gay soldier he could ask another chaplain to counsel him.


"They wouldn't be forced to do it," he says.


Dennis Camp, a retired colonel and Army chaplain for 27 years, says the proposed rules clearly protect a chaplain's religious rights. What chaplains can't do, he says, is act like "moral policemen" and openly condemn homosexuality. The chaplain's job is to serve everyone — religious or not, gay or straight. Camp says the objections raised by evangelicals are a smoke screen.


"They have made it an issue because they want to fight this thing on moral grounds," he says. "That's not the kind of fight it is. It's a civil rights issue."


But ultimately, even if don't ask, don't tell is repealed, evangelicals say they'll still supply chaplains because so many people in the armed forces come from conservative denominations.



http://www.npr.org/2010/12/09/131918799/chaplains-worry-about-careers-if-don-t-ask-is-lifted?sc=fb&cc=fp
 

Unhappy Camper

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Ok ...my response on FB was that :

"Well, actually the Chaplains are the ONLY ones I can see with an established (via tradition/religious dogma) claim to issues on this subject."

What I mean by this is is that the evangelical chaplains, in order to continue their religious dogma, must teach their interpretation of the bible. IN other words that gays are going to hell.

If the military says that they MUST teach otherwise OR resign their commission then that is an example of a legitimate complaint, a grunt in a foxhole saying he does not want to turn his back on a gay grunt for fear of rape or molestation is an example of an illegitimate and ignorant complaint.

IN the military all "Chaplains" are officers and to resign a commission is a big deal and that is the initial basis of my argument to this story.


Your turn ... GO !
 

Klautermauffen

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facebook inappropriate meanie comment:

You blow a Chaplain as a youngin?


No, I see your point.. but honestly it's bullshit. Forcing a faith on people (don't even. just don't) is ridiculous to begin with, and now they're whining because they hate gays and we might acknowledge that they exist? Simple. One modification to their teachings: stop talking about gays. Don't have anything nice to say? Don't say anything at all.

Even better! Get rid of a mainstay religion in the armed forces. Let people choose their own faiths.

This is literally a clash of old world crotchety fatass closed minded military meeting reality.
 

Unhappy Camper

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Here's the reality;

DADT will be repealed and there will be issues initially with people making the adjustment, this is normal and to be expected.

Standards will not change, uniform will not change, warfare will not change, field life will not change.

Barracks life .... I don't know how that will be addressed. Female and male do NOT live in the same room while in GARRISON environments, same buildings yes ... same ROOM nope. Barracks space is limited has been ever since I joined in '86.

Yes yes ... I know, Gays ARE ALREADY in the barracks and are ALREADY living with hetero. This is a COMMAND POLICY issue and a Public relation issue and as soon as DADT is repealed a NEW Command policy will have to be issued.

When females were first moved into male barrack area and the barracks became uni-sex a COMMAND POLICY letter was issued that forbade male/female to occupy the same room. There were no riots or news stories across the country crying foul because we all know what "can" happen when Sally and Johnny are living together and the Army did not want to be seen as running some sort of debauchery farm.

Well .. when openly Gay Carlos is moved in to openly Hetero Johnny's room .. what then?


The issue is face to face personal for the troops but the real crap starts when COMMAND POLICY is written and the Leaders have to enforce things that make no damn sense at times.



The Anti gay crowd is saying that all gays are pedophile/deviant sex weirdos.

The Gays are saying that they are practically angels and would never look at a non gay in a sexual way nor make a sexual advance on some one unless they were wearing their "I'm Gay" name tape.

I suspect the ANTI and PRO groups above are fucking morons.
 

KommieKat

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................................. is not in accordance with God's will?" he says.
These assholes fail on two major points.

1) There are many references of homosexuality in the Bible. They know it because they study it but they avoid it and pretend it's not there.
Two examples: Cain and Able, Noah while in the tent sometime after they landed.

2) They completely have no idea what God's will is. God's will is for all of us to love. Does not matter if one is a male or female homosexual. Just love one another.
 

Wenis

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These assholes fail on two major points.

1) There are many references of homosexuality in the Bible. They know it because they study it but they avoid it and pretend it's not there.
Two examples: Cain and Able, Noah while in the tent sometime after they landed.

2) They completely have no idea what God's will is. God's will is for all of us to love. Does not matter if one is a male or female homosexual. Just love one another.
1) You clearly know fuck all about the Bible yourself, the Bible prohibits homosexuality, there is not mention of Cain and Able being gay - the Bible just fails to explain ANYTHING about how the human race came from Adam and Eve.

2) You clearly know fuck all about the Bible yourself, God hates loads of types of people, and encourages everyone else to hate them as well. Homosexuals should be stoned to death.

Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is an abomination.(Leviticus 18:22 KJV)
If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.(Leviticus 20:13 KJV)


Simples.

Basically... The Bible is NOT a book of peace and tolerance, don't expect religious people to tolerate anything that goes against their dogma. If we were back a few hundred years, people would be getting murdered and stoned all over the shop.

Matthew 10:34
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
 

Klautermauffen

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I don't think Wenis was speaking to the VALIDITY of the Bible. Only that it does, in fact, contain words and phrases that are calling for violence toward homosexuals.
It also says to stone a woman if she isn't a virgin upon marriage .. or something like that. I don't really feel like dredging through bible verses on google at the moment.

My point is that there is a lot of shit that they do not take to heart and run away with. Homosexuality ought to be the same way.
 

Wenis

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It also says to stone a woman if she isn't a virgin upon marriage .. or something like that. I don't really feel like dredging through bible verses on google at the moment.
Hmm, I have this.

Deuteronomy
22:23 If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her;
22:24 Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour's wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you.


Pretty much just says if a woman gets raped and doesn't cry out she should be stoned, or if she commits adultery depending on how you interpret it.
My point is that there is a lot of shit that they do not take to heart and run away with. Homosexuality ought to be the same way.
If it was not against the law to do so, if America was governed by the Christian Church, do you think they would accept homosexuals?

Christianity + homosexuality are not compatible, it's just got less bad because of the law. Christians should in theory follow the Bible word for word (It pretty much says so in the bible), but they don't because they don't want to admit it's a heap of shit and only want to follow the nice parts (which i'm fine with).


God loves sending bears to tear children into pieces because they called a man bald:
2 Kings 2
2:23 And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.
2:24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.
 

SlimSkeeter

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God loves sending bears to tear children into pieces because they called a man bald:
I've used that one in arguments with Christian headhunters. Also handy: Lot's daughters (From Sodom and Gomorrah), first he tosses them to a mob for them to rape just so long as they leave the strangers in his house alone. Then, after fleeing and finding some caves, they THANK (Yes, in essence, they do this out of gratitude) him for that by getting him drunk and raping HIM. <~~~ Holy and virtuous folks there.